Nordic Expert Exchange: A Conversation on Epic Cogito Migrations

Gwen Cantarera, Senior Director, Global Marketing:

Welcome everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today. We are so excited to launch a new content series called Nordic Expert Exchange. We’re gonna kick it off with a discussion we’ve been hearing more and more from our clients around Epic Cogito and the shift in the environment that’s hosting it. Joining us today are two of Nordic’s experts, Eric Pennington, who is our solution executive for digital transformation and Steve Patterson, who leads delivery for data engineering at Nordic. Guys, thank you so much for joining us. I’ll let you take it away.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Wonderful. Thanks, Gwen. We all know in the wild world of Epic, there’s always fun and exciting developments and changes. The question is, what is actually changing and what do we need to do? Mr. Patterson, what’s going on?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Eric. Great to be with you guys. Really, at the simplest level, this is about moving away from Oracle based Cogito environments. So Epic has shared with its clients that support won’t extend beyond twenty seven for Oracle backed clarity. And that’s what’s making this feel a lot more urgent for organizations now.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Yeah, and I imagine it’s not just the timing, it’s how we sequence all this and fit it in with other ongoing projects. So what are you seeing that’s being impacted the most right now? Is it certain types of organizations that are being impacted? Is there a certain profile of organizations that are gonna be most impacted by this, Steve?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. Great question. It really affects any Epic organization running Clarity on Oracle. So for many clients, it’s very relevant right now. And what’s interesting is a lot of teams start by actually thinking this is mainly an IT project.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

But that ain’t it? That’s not what’s going on?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. No. We’re seeing the conversations quickly expand beyond IT because reporting really supports clinical, operational, and financial decisions across the organization. So many different facets are impacted by this.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Interesting. Interesting. So one thing that I’m hearing a lot from organizations I’m talking to and I and I find myself having to sort of explain away is, isn’t this just a database swap?

So when you’re talking with clients about this, where do you usually start?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. That that’s probably the biggest misconception.

So you’re not really just moving data. You’re moving mission critical logic and assets and dependencies. And in most environments, that logic has built up over years. Custom objects, data pipelines, integrations, and all of it is tied into how the organization actually runs.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Yeah. And I’m guessing there’s a point at which the team realizes, hey. This might be a little bit little bit bigger than what we allotted for.

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah, That that’s right, Eric. So it’s not just standing up a new environment, but it’s making sure everything connected to it still works the way people relied on it to work in the past.

And there’s also a rationalization opportunity in this as well, and what I mean by rationalization is really ensuring that whatever is migrated to the new environment is essential and truly needed.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

And where are you seeing clients run into challenges once they start really digging into this work?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

A big one is visibility. A lot of organizations don’t fully know what’s sitting in their clarity environment today.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Yeah. And what is that what does that look like functionally?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

So seeking to answer questions like what assets do we actually have here, really getting granular into stored prox, tables, views, synonyms, all of the technical details, and then what’s actively used versus not used. And then how do how do those pieces connect?

Without that visibility, teams end up reacting instead of planning, and they waste a lot of effort on migrating unnecessary objects.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

And I imagine reporting comes up a lot in these conversations too, Steve.

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah, It does. Clients are asking, how do we make sure nothing breaks after this is done, after we go live, after we go to production? And a lot of cases, you’re talking about hundreds, actually, if not thousands of reports that all need to be checked and validated and ensured that they’re working properly.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

So that’s when the CEO gets a phone call if that breaks down. That’s probably where they’re where people are getting the saltiest. Right?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah, no. That’s definitely that’s the issue in ensuring that all these downstream impacts of these data foundation changes are considered. That’s the essential part for success here.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

What are you seeing, Steve, with the most common mistakes that organizations are making as they start planning for and executing on this?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. So going back to something I said a few minutes ago, a a common misconception is treating it only like an IT task. It usually starts there, but the impact reaches much further because of the reach of reporting across the organization. So teams really, what we’ve seen is they tend to underestimate how many reporting dependencies they’ve built up over time, and in some cases they simply wait too long to assess what’s actually in the environment, which makes everything feel more rushed once the timeline becomes real and they’ve got deadlines that have been communicated perhaps from the top and so it becomes this this scramble mode.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

And maybe focus more on the positive side. What are seeing from organizations that are very successful in doing this well?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

The ones that are doing this well usually start with a structured assessment. One of the first questions we get is where do we start? And the answer is usually an assessment to understand what’s actually in the environment. That’s the first thing that we do when we come in and we, you know, we have a set of diagnostic processes that that seek to assess this and catalog and create an inventory.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

And what are the details of that assessment? Like, what does this assessment need to cover?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

So it’s essentially mapping out custom objects, any dependencies, data pipelines, what’s in scope to migrate versus out of scope. You know, those there’s work sessions likely and conversations that need to be had on, hey. Are these schemas in scope? Are these schemas in scope? You know, those types of granular details, and that upfront visibility changes everything and makes a big difference.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Yeah, it seems like that gives the team a chance to be more methodical and plan things out rather than being reactive and just scrambling around.

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah It does, and execution becomes more phased and controlled and we’re not trap trying to tackle everything at once. So there’s a plan, there’s a there’s deliverables, there’s marching orders. It’s not just this big massive, like, uncertainty.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Yeah, that makes me think about the three letter word. Well, a two letter word, two letter acronym, but AI. Everybody’s talking about it. So we’re hearing about it broadly across healthcare, but how does it apply here? Is it something we can use to accelerate?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah, that’s a great question. And yes, especially for things like PLSQL, Oracle PLSQL to T SQL to SQL Server, SQL translation, AI, and even agents can speed up parts of the work, but it really still needs proper validation to ensure accuracy, and the way I like to say it is that validation by certified epic experts.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

What would you say to an organization? A CIO that’s listening to this and thinking to him or herself. We haven’t started. Are we far behind? Do you have an answer to that?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. No. I definitely do. There’s still time. The earlier you start, the more options and flexibility you have.

I mean, obviously, we’d love to be part of that conversation, but start to start the conversations early and you’ll have more options.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Sounds like the main consideration here is really giving yourself enough time to do this intentionally and thoughtfully.

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yes, definitely. And that and that’s where, you know, the earlier you start, the more control over the timeline, the sequencing and the risk and so forth, definitely.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

From what you’re seeing, is getting that level of visibility still the most important thing to do first?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. I think it is. That baseline understanding of what the inventory is really critical. If you don’t know what you have, it’s hard to build the right plan, and then therefore, it’s hard to execute on that and deliver and get to the end states intact on time, on budget, you know, etcetera.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Is it fair to say the teams and organizations that are struggling the most with this are usually the ones that are trying to take on too much too quickly?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s true. It’s easy to underestimate this work because you think, oh, how hard could it be to migrate Oracle SQL to SQL Server SQL? But the teams that handle this best usually chunk up the work, usually phase it out instead of trying to do everything in one shot.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

And another thing that I’m hearing from organizations here is, obviously, Epic makes mandates. They tell us what to do, and we do what they say. So this is one of those things potentially. Is there any upside just aside from checking an Epic, you know, good install box here?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah, I think there is. At a basic level, it gets an organization aligned to Epic’s roadmap and into a supported environment. And then also the more strategic conversations are about what this unlocks in the future possibilities.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Yeah. What does this what does this unlock?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. Really, a more modern analytics foundation, data foundation, greater scalability, flexibility, faster access to data, opportunities to step into more modern dark data architecture and cloud possibilities, certainly.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

So as a director of data and analytics internally or whomever I might be at the customer side, if I’m trying to socialize this internally, how should I frame this? Is it a technical migration or reporting risk or a analytical strategic decision?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

I mean, I think it’s all of those. It really starts as a technical migration, but it shouldn’t stay framed that way for most organizations.

It’s also a reporting continuity issue and longer term, an analytics strategy decision. So I think it does encapsulate all of those. The technical work, yes, matters very much, of course. But what usually gets leadership attention is the operational risk if reporting breaks, and it’s not supported by Epic anymore, you know, the downstream impacts of that. And the opportunity to come out with this out of this project with a stronger analytics foundation is essential.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

So for organizations that are thinking about this longer term, this can be more than just a checkbox. It could be a way that an organization can modernize their data infrastructure.

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. Exactly. Alright.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Well, if we take a step back, it feels like what we’re hearing from various organizations in the industry is that this is a really intense lift, but it’s also something that they want to be more intentional about.

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. And the organizations that are starting early again are taking a structured approach, and the ones that feel they’re the ones that feel less reactive and more in control.

You know, the difference really there is whether it feels like a fire drill or something you actually were intentional and planned to do and are prepared for.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

At the end of the day, it’s happening. It’s coming either way.

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. Yeah. It is.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

I think for a lot of teams, the question becomes whether or not they have the internal capacity to do this alone or whether they would need to partner or look outside to move faster and reduce risk.

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Right. Yeah. That’s a common question. And what we’re seeing a lot is that organizations don’t have the bandwidth.

In some cases, they don’t have the specific experience to take this on alongside everything else on their plate. Their business as usual aspects of teams, clients that they support, internal and external, all of the things that are on their plate. It’s very hard to juggle this as well. So where we usually help is from the beginning, understanding the environment, helping shape the plan, and then supporting execution in a way that minimizes disruption to the business as usual.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

To build off that, we are actively working with a number of different organizations right now across different stages of the migration process. So we have both Steve and I have had the opportunity to see firsthand where teams are getting stuck and how we can help push things forward.

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Definitely.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

I’d like to turn it back to Gwen.

Gwen Cantarera, Senior Director, Global Marketing:

Yes, thank you guys so much. That was a great conversation. And it’s really good to hear that even though mandates might come down from on high, a lot of times there are immense benefits regardless with the due diligence and the pre planning work.

We have a couple of questions. You guys open to answering some? We’ve got some time.

Sure. Got nothing else planned, Gwen. Let’s go.

Gwen Cantarera, Senior Director, Global Marketing:

All right. Thank you. All right. So we’ve got someone asking, we’re still on Oracle today. Is this actually something we have to do? Can we wait a while? I’m sure these clients are pressed with priority list.

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Steve, I’ll defer to Steve. How are you answering that, Steve?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. For organizations still running Epic Clarity on Oracle migration to Microsoft SQL Server on either cloud architecture, Azure, or AWS, or on prem is required. Epic announced that it will end support for Oracle based cookie dough environments in two thousand twenty seven, so it is coming.

So the question really isn’t whether organizations will need to move, it’s how will they move and how fast do they wanna approach it.

Gwen Cantarera, Senior Director, Global Marketing:

Okay. What’s driving the complexity behind this compared to other platform changes that we’ve done?

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

That’s a really good question. So what tends to surprise clients about the complexity once they start digging in, Steve?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

The biggest factor is how interconnected these environments are. Clarity often has deep dependencies, custom objects, reporting logic, and data pipelines that have built up over time.

Again, though, it’s not just moving a database. You’re also translating logic, especially things like PLSQL code, stored procedures, other objects, and that’s where the effort becomes more significant than many teams initially expect.

Gwen Cantarera, Senior Director, Global Marketing:

Okay, this one just came in. My biggest concern is reporting. How do we make sure dashboards and reports don’t break during this transition?

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

That’s a big one. What do think, Steve?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

It’s and it should be. Right? One of the biggest areas of focus is making sure that these operational these clinical and financial reports continue to work in the new environment because that’s the business, the operations, everything hinges on that.

So the way we approach this is to systematically repoint and validate reports and dashboards against the new SQL environment to make sure that teams can trust the data on day one in the new environment.

Gwen Cantarera, Senior Director, Global Marketing:

Okay and can AI, I know you know this one was coming, right? AI is such a buzzword. Can AI actually help with this migration or are we just capitalizing on what the market is saying right now?

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

Good question. Steve, what do you think?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah. Can. It can help in targeted ways. It’s not yet a set it and forget it solution, like, just I’m gonna dump all my code in here.

It’s gonna do the work, we’re done with this project in a day. It’s not that at all, but it can help in targeted ways. Translating code to SQL could speed up parts of the work. You know, we’re certainly building in accelerators into our projects, but it still needs experienced review and validation.

I would ex I would explain our approach as AI assisted and engineer validated by Epic certified experts, which is an important distinction. So We’re not just throwing a bunch of code in a tool and having it translate it. We’re using some accelerators but we’re validating this with our own Epic certified experts.

Gwen Cantarera, Senior Director, Global Marketing:

How can an organization tell whether it’s still a reasonable timeline or if they are starting to fall behind?

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

This one’s very practical, very tactical. I love a good tactical question. What do think, Steve?

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

It is yeah, a lot of it comes down to readiness and planning maturity. If an organization has a clear view of what’s in the environment, understand its major dependencies, and has identified the teams and the people that need to be involved, they’re usually still in a good position.

Where teams start to fall behind is where when they haven’t done the initial assessment, they’re still treating this as an IT only effort or they’re waiting to define a plan until the timeline feels urgent.

So the more unknowns you have at this stage, the harder it becomes to move in a controlled way.

Gwen Cantarera, Senior Director, Global Marketing:

Okay. Let’s do one more, all right?

If we want to know, if we know this is coming but we haven’t started yet, what should we do in the next sixty to ninety days?

Eric Pennington, Solution Executive, Digital Transformation:

That’s a perfect mic drop. Steve, bring us home.

Steve Patterson, Manager, Strategic Advisory Services:

Yeah, great question. In those first sixty to ninety days, I’d focus on four things, understanding what’s in the environment today, so assessing the current state of database objects and what needs to persist, identifying the biggest dependencies and reporting risks, building a phased plan, and then aligning the right internal owners early. So that’s what I would focus on.

That’s what we’re focusing on in the two efforts that were underway with our clients. That’s what that’s what I would say. So it’s not a insurmountable big scary task. It it’s one that that clearly involves planning, involves understanding the environment.

Gwen Cantarera, Senior Director, Global Marketing:

Yeah, well, thank you guys so much for your time. And I know that neither of you will have a problem with me offering to anyone who’s listening that if they need someone to chat with about this, if this is really on their mind and they’re not sure how to influence their leaders or they’re not sure where to start, either one of you would be happy to jump on a call thirty, forty five minutes and really just have a chat about what’s coming because it is coming.

Definitely. Yeah, appreciate that guys. And thank you to everyone who’s joined us for the first installment of Nordic Expert Exchanges. We really hope that it helped address some of the questions you may have about what’s coming down the pike. And we look forward to sharing more of these exchanges in the future. And as I said, in the meantime, any one of our experts is more than happy to hop on a call and chat through, no pressure at all. We’re just here to help you work through some of these problems you’re facing.